no more need PVR150: DV input is possible 16/9 and HD

[2e0phj]

Hi where did you get the mainconcept filter from?

[F6DZP]

About use of graph or user friendly software

Graphedit is a software for developers that is given by Microsoft with Windows SDK.
Almost all software that work multimedia data use a graph and directshow filters to do their job (like Mediaplayer..) People don't know that there is a graph working in background.
So, sure, use of Graphedit is just a way to test quickly that a combination of some filters can do a specific job and look at result.
After this test , developers take their preferred language, C++, Delphi, Visual Basic,... to give a user friendly interface to the graph and you don't know which graph is built when you use
Mediaplayer but there is always a graph running in background. When you try to play a file that is coded with a codec that is not installed (=no Directshow filter corresponding to this codec) on your PC, Mediaplayer says only that it cannot play this file. That means that there is a lack of some Directshow filter.

Most of software don't give any information about the graph they are running, some give the possibility to look at the graph ( like ProgDVB or DVB Dream - all software working DVB reception under windows use graph) , some - like Tutioune - write on the disk the specific graph they have created when you ask them to play a stream .
When you ask Tutioune to show DATV video/sound received, Tutioune create a graph with the Directshow filters it can find on your PC. It's not the same from one PC to another.
It depends of which Directshow filters are installed on your PC. This graph is written on your disk ("newvideo.grf") This file doesn't do any job, it is just here for you, if you want to check which filters Tutioune is presently using.
Imagine you have 3 Mpeg2 decoder Directshow filters installed on your PC. When you run Tutioune to look at DATV video you are receiving, Tutioune detect that the stream you receive is coded in Mpeg2, so Tutioune search if it can find a Mpeg2 filter and if it find many, it choose the filter that has the best “value of Merit” . You can change this “filter Merit” with some software like DsfMgr (Directshow Manager).
If Tutioune don’t find a Mpeg2 decoder (or another filter needed like Universal Source –usrc.ax- to get the stream) the graph square led is red and Tutioune can’t create the graph and can’t write the “newvideo.grf” file.

So you can use Tutioune without knowing anything about graph, but it can help to know what kind of problem you have on Your PC.
I can know, just by checking their Web monitor, that some OM using Tutioune have not succeeded to receive video with Tutioune – 9/10 a problem of graph.

On all my PC XP, I have installed about a dozen of Mpeg2 decoder filter:
-Cyberlink video SP decoder
-Cyberlink video decoder(PDVD10)
-MainConcept Mpeg2 VideoDecoder
-Elecard Mpeg2video decoder
-Pinnacle Mpag2 video decoder
-MPC-Gabest video decoder
-Blaze Video decoder
-Ffdshow video decoder
-Nvidia pure video decoder
-Elecard 16k video decoder
-Intervideo video decoder
-Dscaler video decoder
-Intel SDK Mpeg2 decoder
...

same thing for H264 video decoder and Mpeg2 coder, muxer, H264 coder …

and since 4 years I work only DATV transmission and reception, in all digital mode, using graph and filters, I have spent many hours , sometimes a full week 7/7 to compare all these filters and making measure of what we can obtain.

There is enormous differences from one filter to another and some result depend of the graphic card actually present on your PC and also the audio decoder chosen!
( audio decoder must work in synchronization with video decoder, and some audio decoder don’t like to work with this or this video decoder…)

Change of decoder can change greatly the result. One video that we see with jerks, jitter can be very fluid just by changing the Mpeg2 decoder filter ( changing the Merit) or changing the audio decoder that runs at same time.

What can be changed, changing Mpeg2 decoder filter?:
- fluidity
- precision ( some filters give blurred pictures, some give very precise pictures)
- % of CPU
Changing of Directshow filter can change your DATV player life.

Tutioune write on the disk this graph.file and you can examine which decoder has been chosen.
This allow you to check, test different kind of decoders and find the best for your computer.

For transmission:

Graph cannot be the ultimate solution, it’s just a first step to test what is possible.
In a second step, not only it is possible to develop a little software that do what we want without use of graph but I am working now to do that.

I ‘m presently working to create a software for transmission:
It will allow to choose:
1- which video source present on your PC you want to use :
o capture card
o webcam
o DV camera
o DVB receiver (=> you create a DATV relay)
o …
( software can easily detect which are present on your PC)

2- which coding you want for video? For audio
a. mpeg2 or H264
b. data rate
c. format 16/9, 4/3, 1/1…
d. …

3- Where you want to send the TS stream:
a. UDP address
b. Dektec DTA107
c. Minimod ( yes, I have linked my Minimod modulator to my PC, I really don’t like the minimod mpeg2 coder that allow only analog input and prevent playing directly with all that my PC can do)
d. Digilite
( software can easily detect which are present on your PC)

When it will work we shall see the video quality result, exactly as it is after coding…

Perhaps this job could be made in collaboration? Or some other developers are working on same target?

Conclusion : yes next step will be to create a little software to do the job user friendly.
I understand that majority of OM don’t want use of Graphedit and myself, after tests with graph, prefer to have a software that do the job without using Graphedit.

Graphedit is just a development tool included in Windows SDK.

Jean Pierre F6DZP

[G8HCB]

Jean Pierre,

It seems that the Mainconcept Mpeg2 Encoder isn't free. It can be purchased with great expense or delivered with other paid for software. Some companies such as Dazzle and possibly ULead bundle it with some of their software, but I am unsure of the exact versions.

I wonder if you have experience of free codecs. I tried an old version of ffdshow (64bit) which includes a libavcodec mpeg2 encoder. This isn't available in any new versions of ffdshow. I found this old build of ffdshow_rev3466_20100531_clsid_x64.exe , it works and includes the free mpeg2 encoder. However even though I can create a graph that creates an mpg file, the graphedit software will not save my created graph. Still experimenting.

I am testing with a Microsoft Lifecam Studio capable of 1920 x 1080 and using 64 bit Windows 7 though, which is being problematic when saving graphs. An internet search shows others with graphedit having saving issues when using a Lifecam. But this doesn't stop me setting up graphs and testing. 32-bit graphedit is not an option for me right now as it crashes when I expand the Directshow filters under 64bit windows.

So to recap I am using - ffdshow from http://www.videohelp.com/tools/ffdshow/old-versions#download - ffdshow_rev3466_20100531_clsid_x64.exe , newer builds have dropped the mpeg2 support.

I encoded MPEG2 video at 4000kb/s but am struggling to mux in the audio before the directshow file writer. The video files play back and shows the correct bitrate according to VLC media player, but runs too fast. I suspect this is because the audio is missing and possibly something to do with keyframe technology to keep playback 25FPS. A quick test with the Microsoft MPEG-2 Encoder filter which allows adding video and audio made an MPEG-2 file with video and audio however the Microsoft MPEG-2 Encoder will not allow bitrate modification under GraphEdit unlike the ffdshow as depicted. So the Microsoft encoder = too high bitrate for Digilite.

If I ever get happy with an MPEG-2 file from graphedit via a free codec I will then test with my Digilite, but I am not there just yet.

Graph shown.





I would like to get a free codec alternative working for MPEG 2 so will continue trying to get this to work - I will also experiment with other capture sources. Also an h264 free codec would be nice if I can find one. If anyone has managed to get a free codec working with Graphedit that creates a 4000kb/s compliant mpeg 2 file with video and audio I would be interested in hearing how you did it. Other than that I will continue experimenting

If I can't get things to work via free codecs, then I will be looking for a cheap bundle that includes the MainConcept MPEG2 Encoder, rather than spending $150 individually or $500 for a codec pack from Mainconcept. Again - Anyone that can identify a cheap way of getting the Mainconcept codec on your machine - please PM me or post.

P.S. Jean Pierre - I suspect you either purchased the encoder or have a piece of software installed where it was bundled. And yes you could spend a lot of time playing with video codecs 7x7? more like 24hr x 365d or 366d in the case of 2012

73 de
Chris
G8HCB

[F6DZP]

The test I have made first for Digilite was using Mainconcept coder and muxer
Yes Mainconcept encoder is not free.
I had some Mainconcept codec package installed on my computer with a version of Adobe Premiere Pro.
some other Mainconcept tools has been added step by step on my computer, some when installing some software, others by other ways.
(Before developing Tutioune, I have made a great study of what exist on the market among DVB PCI and USB cards .I have bought between 20 and 30 different Tuner cards with their own software packaging so I have installed many software and codec from many sources...Yes I am called also "DVB fanatic" on some site about DVB satellite reception...)

Elecard and MainConcept were the same company during some years, these companies are now separated but many coder/decoder filter stay the same with both trade.
You can download the demo SDK from Elecard from free. Coder are similar to Mainconcept coder I use.
demo version just add a little text or logo on your picture, but this allow you to test.
W8KHP use these Elecard codec. I have helped him few month ago for creating a graph to send TS stream to his DTA107 and he succeed do do it with these filters.
http://www.vivadatv.org//viewtopic.php?f=27&t=16

There are some site on the Net where you can find all the Mpeg2/H264 coder/decoder filters you need for free, but it 's against copyright law...

I'm also testing different solutions to find the best filters can be used for not too much money.

Jean Pierre F6DZP

[G8HCB]

Jean Pierre,

Thanks for the reply. Keep me posted if you find any "budget" encoders that work with graphedit.

For now I will keep looking into free options and see if anything may work other than...Vmix 2012!!!

This is free solution which G6WGZ and myself are also experimenting with on the the Digilite. We have both used this to TX. Vmix is used as a video mixing software solution and the latest version will create a realtime mpg2 file on the fly. Vmix has video editing functions such as overlay and picture in picture / realtime media file playing. It works well but the quality could be better. I know it's Dave's G6WGZ baby so I will let him post any details for anyone wanting to use vmix as a free poormans encoder.

Software is free for personal use :- http://www.vmix.com.au/download.aspx



It may need a reasonable PC to run without hiccups. But again no PVR hardware required!

de
Chris
G8HCB

[F6DZP]

About using Webcam.

Best results are with Webcam that give directly a RGB/no coded format information.
Webcam that give Mjpeg constrain us to decode Mjpeg to RGB, YUV, or YUY2 befor coding in Mpeg2 or H264. This take time and add jitter and delay to the time when picture is ready. It can give a difference with sound that is directly in PCM mode, so give synchronization problem that give a bad multiplexed stream.
Many Webcam that are announced 800x600 and 30fps in reality are 800x600 at 15fps and 320x240 at 30 fps. They don't tell us that max definition and max speed are cannot be set at same time.

The best way to test a webcam is to create a graph with a renderer using Haali Renderer with OSD option set. You will see exactly the jitter you have, all timing ...
and create a second graph with the video from the webcam -eventually decoded- Mpeg2 encoded and decoded for a rendering with Haali renderer and look at jitter, timing ...
Many problem with Webcam mpeg2 encoding and mux come firstly from tht, not from coder problem.

One very good webcam that give directly no coded Video data, not Mjpeg, and can be set up to 150 fps is the PS3 eye, the USB camera for PS3 playstation. You will find drivers developed for PC on the Net.
Easy to code directly in Mpeg2 and no jitter.

I always make jitter test in all points of my graph adding Haali renderer, just the time to look at results.

Jean Pierre F6DZP

[F6DZP]

Here you will find all sources I have tested last days.

video live transmission tested with Digilite.jpg (344.68 KiB) Viewed 1313 times

Logitech C525 is a very good Webcam HD that can give RGB24 (no need to decode Mjpeg) many modes up to 1600x896p 30 fps.
with autofocus and for 35 euros...
1024x576 is the real format display correspond to D1- 16/9 and don't need too much CPU power for software encoding.
1280x720 is my own preference...

about picture quality:

* using SR4000 is too low for HD higher than 720p-mpeg2 coding ,but can be used for H264
(good result with HDV camera firewire input 1440x1080i or C525 webcam with 1600x896p setting)

* with SR4000, mpeg2 can be used up to 1280x720p with good video

* with SR1500 or lower, H264 allow to keep good video. for this rate ,IMHO, Mpeg2 should be discarded.

I understand that for the moment many OM use satellite setTop Boxes that don't allow H264 decoding but if we use last dvb-S2 setTop box or a PC we can have H264 decoding possibilities.

same problem using SCART output that can't give progressive formats....

The last version of Tutioune in beta test allow to receive H264, even in full HD 1920x1080 with the mini Itx GA-D525 TUD motherboard with little Atom D525 under win XP.
( see TiouneBox description that can be 12v powered with a settop-Box look)

I am now testing the Elecard G4 SDK that give us all directshow filters we need.
I have tested Elecard Multiplexer. It runs well and can be used with no restriction for transmission.
I have to test now Elecard coder and other free coder we can find.
Perhaps some of you have already done this job and can give their results.

Jean Pierre F6DZP

this morning I will send Digilite H264 HDV pictures received by Tutioune on my TiouneMonitor http://www.vivadatv.org/tutioune.php?om ... ation_id=2

[G4EWJ]

How does the Logitech C525 camera compare with the PS3 Eye camera you mentioned earlier?

Brian

[F6DZP]

Both give RGB signal, no need to decod Mjpeg

PS3eye has no HD possibilities and no 16/9
all modes are 4/3:
320x240 with fps : 15hz, 30hz, 50hZ, 75 hz, 100hz, 125hz
640x480 with fps : 15hz, 30hz, 50hZ, 75 hz;

this webcam is often used for "avant-garde" shows by artists that use multiple webcam
The high fps possibilities and high shutter that allow that is a very good caracteristic we don't find very often with webcam.

I intend to test use of 2 x Ps3eye Webcams to produce 3D transmission (side by side mode)...


C525 possibilities

4/3 modes:
160x120
176x144
320x240
352x288
640x480
800x600
960x720
1280x960

16/9 modes:
320x176
432x240
544x288
640x360
752x416
800x448
864x480
960x544
1024x576 <<<<<<
1184x656
1280x720 <<<<<<<
1392x768
1504x832
1600x896

fps can be set to : 5fps, 7.5 fps, 10 fps, 15 fps, 20 fps, 24 fps, 30 fps.

I have tested all modes with 30 fp, you get it if you don't use "RightLight" option, 20 fps if you use it.
shutter speed is no as fast as he PSEeye but a very very good picture at low distances or macro.

After having used during 2 years the PS3eye webcam as my preferd webcam, I will choose now the Logitech C525 firstly for 16/9 mode and HD possibilities.

Jean Pierre F6DZP

[G4EWJ]

Thanks.

I notice on the C525 that there is no D1 mode (720 x 576) nor 25fps. I assume this is not a problem?

Brian