DSLR camera for live, continuous uncompressed HD video over HDMI

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markaren1
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:49 pm

DSLR camera for live, continuous uncompressed HD video over HDMI

Postby markaren1 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 12:45 am

Hello all,

Am contemplating buying a DSLR camera.

Really would like a unit which could be used *just* as a live video source, as well as a traditional camera.

Looking for uncompressed 720P (or higher) over HDMI, from a camera which will not close down after a few minutes idle.

Also needs an external mains power pack (in place of the battery ?).

So basically, it can double as a DSLR, or a video camera.

Budget < NZ$600, so probably not currently in production.

Thoughts please ?

Thanks, Mark

VK5YYY
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:47 am

Re: DSLR camera for live, continuous uncompressed HD video over HDMI

Postby VK5YYY » Fri Apr 21, 2017 2:02 pm

Hi Mark

I had that thought too, ahhh a nice camera with live HDMI output with sound and video, can't be that hard
Well after googling and consulting a bunch of experts that's not how it goes
Most units have ability to record and then payback HDMI, there is box CCTV cameras with live HDMI output, Gopros and DSLRs have no live output
You can get professional video cameras that output SDI (uncompressed MPEG serial format) that can be converted to HDMI they start at around $3000AUD and other units that just output SDI video and not sound that are used in the movie making world where audio and video are done separately

Turns out the best bang for buck live HDMI output device is a Canon HV-20 or HV-30 Camcorder circa 2006
They have the old Mini DV tapes, but the video output is very good live HDMI and the on screen info can be removed for "clean HDMI"
You can take stills with them too
Please somebody correct me if I am wrong, clean HDMI live output at a reasonable price was a brief moment in history
You can pick up HV series Canons for $100-300AUD on Ebay just remember US version are NTSC
I've got one for $120 it still works fine, one of my best investments

Cheers Roger VK5YYY

markaren1
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:49 pm

Re: DSLR camera for live, continuous uncompressed HD video over HDMI

Postby markaren1 » Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:09 pm

Thanks Roger,

I was afraid you were going to say what you did, as that tied up pretty much with my research, then I found this http://www.nikonusa.com/en/learn-and-ex ... hdslr.html which surprised me. Just wondering if this only applies to their professional range.

Priority 1 of this project is to get a decent DSLR. Clean, live video out would be a (significant) added bonus.

Also, just found http://simeonpilgrim.com/nikon-patch/nikon-patch.html Simeon has been working on adding features to 'low cost' Nikon DSLRs by patching the firmware.

Firmware for Nikon D5100 version 1.01
◦Remove Time Based Video Restrictions
◦Liveview Manual Control ISO/Shutter
◦Clean HDMI & LCD Liveview
◦Video 1080 HQ 36mbps Bit-rate
◦Video 1080 HQ 54mbps Bit-rate
◦Video 1080 HQ 36mbps Bit-rate NQ old HQ
◦Video 1080 HQ 54mbps Bit-rate NQ old HQ
◦NEF Compression Off
◦NEF Compression Lossless
◦Disable Nikon Star Eater
◦BETA - True Dark Current
◦BETA - True Dark Current - Menu based
◦Jpeg Compression - Quality (vs. Space)
◦Non-Brand Battery

Still unclear if the HDMI output is in-the-clear, or encrypted. Also, unsure what HDMI compliance stream testing (if any) has been conducted. Any other questions/issues I should be thinking about ?

Added bonus is that he lives in the same city as me, in NZ (small world huh).

Regards, Mark
ZL3JVX, KE6LVK, G8JVX, etc.
digilite-ZL

VK5YYY
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:47 am

Re: DSLR camera for live, continuous uncompressed HD video over HDMI

Postby VK5YYY » Mon Apr 24, 2017 1:13 am

Hi Mark

I was told by one of the experts I consulted talked about hacks for DSLRs
Most of them involved wiring a DIY interface to the camera and updating firmware
Having pulled a few cameras apart I can't see myself buying a new camera only to pull it apart
Then wiring a cheesy looking looking interface to it, that sounds ordinary
Worst of all risking "bricking" the camera with homemade firmware puts me right off

Once you've got Simeon to upgrade your low cost Nikon, he can do one for me too!
I'm surprised no one else has posted any ideas, keep us posted how you go

Cheers Roger VK5YYY

G8XZD-TV
Posts: 74
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:41 pm

Re: DSLR camera for live, continuous uncompressed HD video over HDMI

Postby G8XZD-TV » Mon Apr 24, 2017 6:22 pm

What HDMI capture card are you proposing to use?

VK5YYY
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:47 am

Re: DSLR camera for live, continuous uncompressed HD video over HDMI

Postby VK5YYY » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:37 pm

Personally I convert the HDMI to SDI with Blackmagic converter
SDI converts to ASI the compressed version of Mpeg serial data in an old Harmonic unit
Then modulate the ASI to DVBS with an old Tandberg unit

Cheers Roger

markaren1
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:49 pm

Re: DSLR camera for live, continuous uncompressed HD video over HDMI

Postby markaren1 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:50 am

Thanks guys.

Roger, any chance of the model numbers of the equipment in you TX chain please.

And of course, part II, of my question; anyone have recommendations for a low cost HDMI capture card which works with vMix ?

Thanks,

Mark

VK5YYY
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:47 am

Re: DSLR camera for live, continuous uncompressed HD video over HDMI

Postby VK5YYY » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:37 am

Firstly you need a HDMI source....RPi test patern and Bevan VK5BD wrote a bit of code: so a switch on the GPIO changes the test pattern to the camera
Output from PC is good and of course the Canon HV30, remember Mpeg2 was years ago, so old equipment is good (so old the patent will expire soon)

Next, convert the HDMI to SD-SDI (75ohm coax uncompressed standard definition Mpeg2 serial data) don't be tempted by modern stuff like the cheap $30 converters, you need Backmagic converter with the processor switch on the bottom like this one eBay item number:282447537501
There are others similar, but the processing converts the HDMI to SD-SDI, you don't want HD-SDI, Mpeg2 doesn't like that (old good, new bad)

The SDI goes to the converter, in my case a Harmonic MV-45 eBay item number:191809832794 to the DI input on the far right hand side, there is a composite input too, and sound inputs and the ASI (compressed Mpeg2 data pops out the other side on the left most connector)
NB the unit has it's memory on a flash card so it takes a while to boot, there is a fan that make a little noise, fully programmable by the front panel
No Web interface is available and these are old units, but quality, they cost $$$$$$ in the day. The Harmonic sets the PIDs ready for broadcast

Now we have ASI which is in a constant bit rate compressed Mpeg2 data in 75ohm coax with friendly BNC, we are ready to broadcast
ASI and SDI go around 80 metres distance and can be unplugged and plugged back in freely, professional switching and genlocks get complicated
We use RG6 with cheap connectors but in studios they are anal about quality, both formats include equalization techniques so the signal is bulletproof

The Tandberg modulator SM-5600 is the one we use eBay item number:282438835882, again old school quality with fan noise
The Tanberg has a Telnet interface and is also front panel programmable(make a coffee first)sometimes the buttons need love because of previous use
The modulator sets the FEC and Msym and and outputs an IF of 70-180mhz, mmmm but we need 23cms, not sure about ZL land?

An Up converter is required, try Cross Technologies units (none on ebay at the moment) but Mark's converter (minikits) is good
http://www.minikits.com.au/electronic-k ... E1.2G-CV17
Just put the TX bits, leave the RX bits off, LO of 1130mhz is common, but any where close will do, you'll have -10 to 0 dbm ish, just add PA and filter

Approx cost incl delivery in AUD: Black Magic $120, Harmonic $200, Tandberg $180, Cross test converter $60 (or Minikits $68 plus LO)

Cheers Roger VK5YYY

markaren1
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2011 8:49 pm

Re: DSLR camera for live, continuous uncompressed HD video over HDMI

Postby markaren1 » Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:31 am

Thanks for taking the trouble with all the eBay links Roger, very useful.

I believe that MPEG2 will support HD, provided the encoder can use the MP@HL profile.

Current system is a USB based MPEG2 encoder (Hauppauge HVR-1900), some Linux processing, Digilite-ZL modulator/up-converter and a small PA, on 1280MHz.

See http://www.idesignz.org/DigiLiteZL/DigiLiteZL.htm for more; can't believe that the project is 5 yrs old now. Main issue is latency, hence the questions about the pro-gear.

-Mark

VK5YYY
Posts: 43
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2015 1:47 am

Re: DSLR camera for live, continuous uncompressed HD video over HDMI

Postby VK5YYY » Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:24 pm

I think that is correct, Mpeg2 certainly can support HD in the DVB-T world and on Optus D1 SBS is broadcast HD Mpeg2
The Ogg DVB-T modulator uses MP@ML for Mpeg2 HD, but the old school Harmonic encoders definitely only work with SD-SDI
So it may work, but it hogs bandwidth I guess, no problem for ATV though, I can't remember any Mpeg2 DVB-S box that was HD that I've sold
My guess is that pre 2005 Mpeg2 boxes won't but newer DVB-S2 boxes will, post 2005 boxes seem to like Variable Bit Rate broadcasts too

Moving to Mpeg4/ DVB-S2 is the normal progression to professional HD-SDI broadcasting, although I believe Mpeg2 does have some benefits over Mpeg4
Also Mpeg4 equipment is found on Ebay too
However all the old DVB-S gear is getting kicked out of up-linking stations in the US and Europe therefore it's cheap
We will have to wait another 5 years for the DVB-S2 gear to appear on Ebay in quantity

By then smart chaps like Charles Brain will have released numerous versions of Lime SDR code for our broadcasting pleasure
At which time our Portsdown RPis and Digilites will be old school, our soldering irons might be less used, hang on: old good, new bad :o

Cheers Roger


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